Curse

AW Lore · Dec 04, 2006, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

I shouldve taken a screenie... my Watch Yourself! was on recharge (as in disabled for X seconds), and the only attack on my "You got hit by" bar was Barrage and Savage Shot.

shouts cant be interrupted, it might have been diverted, or perhaps you were in that area of the realm of torment where all skills used are delayed by an aditional 3 seconds

Quote:

Personally, I would like to know what those Kournan Bowmen have for armor. They are harder to kill than the Guards (warriors).

they have whirlind defense (sp?) a ranger skill that from aprox 3-15 seconds they have 75% chance of blocking melee and ranged attacks, and as rangers, they have armor protection against elemental atacks.

Lapin Diabolique · Dec 04, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

I have not gotten very far in the Nightfall campaign so I cannot speak for anything past the first few Command Post quests. However, contrary to what Evilsod and Elruid say, I have not seen any spiking in Factions or in early in Nightfall. In Consulate Docks if you run ahead of the party and become the only target to the archers on the stairs, they will all attack you at the same time. It looks sort of like a spike, but it's really a case of them picking the most convenient target rather than consciously deciding to spike you down.

To me, it isn't a spike unless it does the following:
1. The offense on the spiking team deliberately switches to a single target simultaneously, and
2. They cause over 450 damage to that target in one second or less.

I'm also not counting bosses or extremely high level monsters that hit really hard as a matter of course. A spike has to be a concerted attempt to simultaneously and suddenly focus fire on a target.

If there are mobs that do that later in the game, awesome.

skillsbas8 · Dec 04, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Majority of high level PVE is a spike. Level 31 and 28 monsters have a tendency to hit harder and faster than we are normally used to. It's not as organized as a pvp spike, because it doesn't have to be.

Paperfly · Dec 04, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

There's been spikes in PvE since the Mineral Springs avicara R-Spike in Prophecies.

...The reason they're a bad idea is not connected to how difficult the individual encounter is. It's got to do with the philosophy of playing though an area.

In PvP you're trying to win the encounter. Each side can take casualties, but the only lifebar that ultimately counts is the last one standing!

In PvE you're trying to win the encounter without taking casualties. You're planning on fighting more than one encounter before resetting your morale, and any fight that ends up with any of your party getting killed is a bad fight.

Gregslot · Dec 04, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by milias

I think ANet may be trying to train us for PvP in PvE end-game areas

i agree

mqstout · Dec 04, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Kournan bowmen have been spiking quite well in what I've seen. The Consulate Docks mission was pretty deadly for that.

MithranArkanere · Dec 04, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Find the Sandstorm Boss.

If 5 400 damage hits in under 5 seconds is not spike damage, I don't know what is it.

Antheus · Dec 04, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

PvE has spikes since start.

Whenever you encounter a group of x (x > 2) same type of mobs, they have a high tendency to spike.

The following conditions are required:
- All creatures with spike capacity get agroed at the same time
- They have a high preference for certain skill

If 3 casters get agroed, but they need between 0 and 4 seconds to get into casting range, you won't get spiked.

This isn't some great design, but merely the artefact exhibited by AI. Each creature is handled individually. While they do randomize their skills, with their limited (5 skills, usually even less) they will very likely use the same skill. There is no inherent coordination, it all depends when they agro and when they start attacking.

This behaviour first became apparent in Factions. Groups are tightly packed, there's commonly 3 or more creatures of same type. Terrain provides chokepoints.

In addition, Ai mobs spam their skill while energy allows it. During initial attack, or during multiple group agro, this will result in spikes, simply due to probability.

A mixed creature group cannot spike. If you have a W,R,E,Me,Mo, then they simply deal damage to same target, but not a true spike. A shadow army group of 3 rangers however can spike, but they prefer barrage spam.

Spikes however are mostly innefective outside of flukes, especially with skills like Shield of Absorbtion. The only way a mob could spike a single person is with a group of 5 or more level 20 creatures of same type. Everything else is simply typical AI overkill, due to level difference bonus.

True spikes as seen in PvP exist to bypass some very specific build deficiencies (blood spike, obs spike, ranger spike, spike whatever). And since PvP and PvE builds work around completely different aproach, they aren't comparable. Even in pvp, setting up a spike requires quite a specific setup, and even there it's frequently countered, or at least executed imperfectly.

Aigred · Dec 05, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Some people are still unclear on the kind of spike I'm talking about so I will define two terms for the purposes of this thread:

There is deliberate spike, which is what you see in pre-planned spike teams in PvP and in the Zaishen Challenge Obs Flame team, and which is what I was referring to in my original post.

Then there is incidental or accidental spike, which is what everyone so far has described when they gave examples of spikes that exist in PvE.

The PvE spikes that everyone is talking about do not happen because the AI is deliberately trying to perform a spike, but it is instead an artifact of how the AI works, as Antheus described so well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Whenever you encounter a group of x (x > 2) same type of mobs, they have a high tendency to spike.

The following conditions are required:
- All creatures with spike capacity get agroed at the same time
- They have a high preference for certain skill

This isn't some great design, but merely the artefact exhibited by AI. Each creature is handled individually. While they do randomize their skills, with their limited (5 skills, usually even less) they will very likely use the same skill. There is no inherent coordination, it all depends when they agro and when they start attacking.

In addition, Ai mobs spam their skill while energy allows it. During initial attack, or during multiple group agro, this will result in spikes, simply due to probability.

What I want to see in PvE is the addition of deliberate spikes to round out the incidental spikes that we already have.

So with this distinction in mind, I invite everyone who said that PvE already has spikes to answer the more specific question: does PvE have "deliberate" spikes?

Regardless of the answer to that question however, I think it's clear that many of the respondents here are of the mind that the incidental spikes are hard enough and that adding deliberate spikes would be too much.

But most of the respondents who are speaking out against spikes appear to be against a general increase in spikes and have not answered the more specific question of, would you like to see deliberate spikes added to hard and optional portions of PvE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paperfly

...The reason they're a bad idea is not connected to how difficult the individual encounter is. It's got to do with the philosophy of playing though an area.

In PvP you're trying to win the encounter. Each side can take casualties, but the only lifebar that ultimately counts is the last one standing!

In PvE you're trying to win the encounter without taking casualties. You're planning on fighting more than one encounter before resetting your morale, and any fight that ends up with any of your party getting killed is a bad fight.

Very good points. And that's why I'm calling for deliberate spike groups in optional "hard" parts of PvE, not just anywhere. For example, one good place would be as the very last encounter in an intentionally difficult quest, after which you'd likely be mapping back to town anyway.

WebMage · Dec 05, 2006, 05:39 AM // 05:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Priest Of Sin

I shouldve taken a screenie... my Watch Yourself! was on recharge (as in disabled for X seconds), and the only attack on my "You got hit by" bar was Barrage and Savage Shot.

I just wanted to point out that savage shot doesn't cause recharge, distracting shot does.